i've been a lurker for a while and now i need to ask advice. From what I read many of you regular posters are remarried....If I can be so intrusive as to ask.....how to did you know when it was time to divorce and how did you start the proceedings? I ask because I've been unhappily married for three years and I've just realized that while opposites attract, it's difficult to communicate when we have no common ground. I'm fed up with being the only one trying in a relationship. After x years of trying to get him into counseling, he's finally willing to go after I told him, "I give up." He wants to try, but I really feel it's too late and I don't want a lifetime of constant struggle and conflict. We're just too different and we don't have kids. i think that was the biggest wake up when I thought I was pregnant and I just really, really, really did not want to have a child with him or put a child through our dysfunctional relationship So.....any advice for negotiating the process? any tips for not letting it get ugly?

Sounds like it's time then. If you can decide how to divide your assets then you can do it mostly without lawyers and it'll be cheap and easy. Otherwise you'll have to negotiate all that stuff. Try to stay unemotional and logical about everything. It's difficult to do, but it'll make everything go smoother. And just tell it like it is.

Does he know how you feel?

He knows I'm unhappy and have been I've said several times, "I can't live like this." I've asked him if he wanted a divorce and he said no and I said that without major changes, we weren't going to make it. I've told him that I don't think counseling is working. I've said that I'm tired of spinning our wheels and that I didn't want to wake up x-x years from now, angrier and more bitter and less able to find someone I deserve. It's harder for x year old women to re-marry than for a x year old man. I haven't said, "I want a divorce." I don't think he knows I'm ready to walk out. I did pack a bag once and he talked me out of it. I'm just sick of the roller coaster.......we just don't agree on anything it seems like.

What are the biggest changes that he would have to make in order for you to want to stay with him?

that's the thing....he'd have to be a different person. We don't agree on politics, sex, household chores, finances, socializing, parenting (if we were to have children), etc.

Well, there's one thing that sums it up for me.. You said you didn't want to have his kid. That pretty much summed it up for me. It should be pretty obvious to you too. But sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees...

If he'd have to be an entirely different person, then it's time to go; you need an ACTUAL entirely different person, and so does he. There is someone out there who AGREES with you on "politics, sex, household chores, finances, socializing, parenting" and you can't find that person while you are still caught up in this relationship. This isn't just about you. You can love someone and still not be "right" for each other; if he's not "right" for you, what are the chances you are "right" for him? Carpe diem for both of you.

I think I agree that it's too late for counseling to save the marriage, if that's what you want. That's just my own personal experience of being at my wits' end in a marriage for a few years *before* getting into counseling. However, it could really help you to negotiate the separation & divorce amicably. I got divorced in October and it was very calm, mature and respectful. The only thing I would have changed is that I wish I'd left sooner. I hate to say that, because I really never wanted to get a divorce, if that makes any sense. I mean I tried like hell to keep the relationship going. But it takes two people. We were in couples counseling a couple of different times that got cut short because of a move & job change. By the time we got back into it - too late. Anyway. Since you don't have children to think of, get out now. You both deserve better.

if you don't mind my asking what were your issues? How long were you married and how much sooner do you wish you would have left? Are you happier now? I hope so. Thank you for your advice. I really appreciate it.

what brought you together? if you've only been married three years, some of that good stuff must be left, no?

Some....but he's changed a lot I'm sure he thinks I've changed too. He still has a silly side....I just don't see it as often. He's still smart and attractive and ambitious. The changes: he stopped taking care of his depression and became much more grumpy, moody and reclusive; he started showing a very conservative republican and somewhat bigoted side that was hidden before; he's now anti-social and doesn't want to go out (i'm sure this is linked to his depression but he absolutely refuses to see anyone or take meds--I've tried to be supportive for the past few years, but I'm drained. I'm sure I've enabled and have tried to stop that through counseling on my own....but I'd like to have a social life). I honestly feel duped. Where the hell is the sweet, romantic, spontaneous, giving partner? We only dated for a year before getting engaged and eloped quickly after. I guess I didn't really get to know him well enough before.

well, if you really feel this was bait-&-switch then you may be right to run. but I think I'd ultimatum him on treating the depression before I left, so as not to leave any doubt in my mind that I'd given it my best shot.

if he's imploding, the counselling could help even if it's mediating a split, it could include helping him set some goals for himself and individual follow-up.

You're most likely right about not dating long enough. A year is a decent amount of time to get to know somebody, but definitely not enough to see all of their sides. I always feel pity when I hear that someone has a psychological disease that requires medication. There are many people with these types of illnesses who are incapable of rational thought when they are off their meds. They won't recognize that their thought processes are disturbed and that the only way to fix them is by being compliant with their dosing schedule because they are off their meds. It's a catch x. But you can't be his constant caregiver. Eventually he has to learn coping skills that allow him to recognize when he needs to take his medication again. Or he needs to develop coping skills that tell him to listen to his friends/family/spouse when they tell him to be compliant with his dosing schedule.

the wake-up I think for most, there's some event or other that opens our eyes. Suddenly, it's crystal clear that the only best solution is divorce. May take years to reach that point, building up to it - but then some little thing is said or happens that makes going back impossible. For you, the scare of pregnancy. For me, it was a point during yet another argument, with a certain look in his eyes and something he said. Next day, I found myself looking for apartment ads - not browsing, really looking. I'd already made the disconnect, and subconsciously was taking the next logical step. As for keeping it from getting ugly, all I can say is that you two communicate and work out as many of the details as you can together. If you're fighting constantly, it might not happen outside of the courtroom. It worked for me, because my Ex wanted out of the marriage, too. So it was a common interest. I can't really advise you beyond that... ours was NOT a courtroom divorce. Ex and I worked out all the details between ourselves (who gets what, custody, visitation, child support, etc.) and then just presented that to my attorney. Attorney drew up the papers, Ex and I went before a judge (privately), and it was done. VERY strange how we couldn't agree on anything IN the marriage, but agreed on everything while breaking it apart. Sad, but true. If we'd been able to compromise like that to keep the marriage together, it might have worked. Some ground rules Ex and I used: ~ Anything either of us owned before the marriage, we got to keep. ~ Anything given to us by family went to the one who belonged to that family. ~ Anything acquired by either of us or together during the marriage was negotiated. One for you, one for me, one for you, etc. Or split down the middle. Or to the one for whom that object meant the most (he wanted our fishing gear, I wanted the Christmas decorations, etc.) ~ We had a garage sale for the rest and split the income. And do this quickly, don't drag it out over weeks. Get your stuff out of there, or help him collect all of his, all at one time. Don't leave anything behind that could create arguments later, or create excuses for either of you to hang around the doorstep. KEEP THINGS FAIR and don't lose your temper. Stay calm and cool. Compromise. And good luck!

thank you very much....how long were you married before you decided enough was enough? How long did the divorce take? How long did it take you to emotionally heal after it? I know everyone is different, but it helps me to hear about other's experiences.

my answers - and love never dies. "How long were you married before you decided enough was enough?" Thirteen years. The trouble started after about three years of marriage. By the seventh year, I'd reached my breaking point - but by then, we had a child together. I owed it to our child to keep trying. Six years more was all I could take, and it became clear that for the welfare of our CHILD I needed to break it off, not prolong the misery. "How long did the divorce take?" Because we were in agreement about the details and no courtroom drama was required, it could have taken mere weeks or less. But because there was a child involved, state law required a six-month waiting period. So it took six months. "How long did it take you to emotionally heal after it?" That's hard to say, but I'd guess it took me about x-x/x years before I was ready to move on (consider that we were together x years, not three). I knew I was ready when he came to my city for visitation with our son, and stayed over in my house. He attempted sex, at first I went along to see if any spark remained. Nothing. So I pushed him away. Next morning, I caught myself singing "I can see clearly now, the rain is gone. I can see all obstacles in my way..." Shocked the shit out of me. Don't know where THAT song came from (a dream?), but it made perfect sense. I was over him. A few weeks later, I opened my eyes and heart and started looking for love again - and found it. You should know that I still love him, and probably always will. Doesn't mean I ever want to live with him or be married to him, I don't. But we shared some very happy times early on, those are precious memories. We raised a child together. We went through some hard times and good times. Part of who I am today is because of the years I spent with him, and I value that. For me, the love doesn't ever die... but it takes a backseat in my heart, a special place no one else can touch, and reminds me from time to time that it's still there. It doesn't hurt so much anymore, but I'll always have regrets. It's just part of who I am now, not something to squash, destroy and forget - because if I do that, I'll destroy part of myself. I suppose you could that "acceptance."

cut and run It is by far the quickest way for both of you to get back on track, otherwise, if you're not careful, this thing will stretch out for a decade (a decade lost I might add). There is no good time or right way for a union strike, war, or divorce... break clean and get on with your lives. The faster the better... don't compromise... and for goodness sake, DO NOT entertain a notion of "staying friends" = it never works and always comes to a bad end. Cut and run.

about compromise.... I agree there should be no compromise on the decision to "cut and run," but the OP asked how to keep things from getting ugly. Compromise is necessary for the division of goods, else it will get VERY ugly in about five seconds flat.

Okay, if you want a script Write a "Dear John" letter, pack, and leave while they're out. That's quick, complete, unmistakable, easy to do, and will settle down faster that any other possible way. COMPROMISE? No, take what's yours, leave what was to be ours, and leave. Your future is not worth bickering over objects or things. Face it, when OP asked "how to keep things from getting ugly" she's asking how to make an atomic bomb cool instead of hot. The very least "ugly" is to be gone. There is no less ugly way to do it. If these two got along well enough to have a friendly parting of he ways, they probably wouldn't be parting of the ways. That's kinda ma point.

but that IS a compromise! "...leave what was to be ours, and leave. Your future is not worth bickering over objects or things." The choice to NOT bicker over objects IS a compromise. A refusal to compromise is saying, "No, that thing is mine and I'm taking it, no matter what you think." Leaving that thing behind in the interest of peace, even though it's something you want, IS a compromise. Interesting debate. Too bad I have to leave for work now. :(

If you happen to come back I wouldn't argue with your last. Take it, leave it, or give it away... who cares, just get out before they come back...

Happiness. When we fail at things, there seems to be a natural impulse to get that index finger working and “point”. Our ability to adapt and survive circumstances has to do largely with OURSELVES and how we deal with issues and problems. Before you “cut and run” look within. Try to be objective and see what you did or did not do to bring down this marriage. Love just does not die over night; it’s usually a slow death over time with despair and apathy at the core. “I am what I am becoming”

I totally understand... your frustraton. It sound slike you need to go, good for you for being strong enough to know what's best for you. I would tell him your feelings, give him some time to digest the decision you have made. He will try to talk you out of your decision so if a divorce is what you think is best for you stand your ground and know that going into this he will try to negotiate. You could try mediation. It's a lot less expensive than litigation. If you don't have kids the divorce might be a lot easier than otherwise. Good luck and do what you know is best for you. Be strong.